Remote Rig
RRC 1258 Support in English => General discussion forum => Topic started by: w2huv on 2016-03-07, 19:59:29
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I am a www.remotehamradio.com (RHR) member. I use an RRC-1258 MkII to interface with my Elecraft K3/0 Mini and the N1MM+ logger. I have modified stock N1MM+ Function Key Files to use the K3 KY command and the N1MM+ CATA1ASC command to transmit ASCII characters to a remote K3 for nearly a year, because this is what RHR tells you to do.
Recently, I determined how to use the WinKey emulator to key a remote K3 directly using the stock N1MM+ Function Key Files. Initially, the remote K3 hung up frequently. That is, the TX light stayed lit after a command was completed. This was accompanied by either a K3 ERR KEY or ERR PTT message. I tried everything to eliminate this issue. The extent of the issue varies from station to station. Finally, I discovered that if I added a couple of spaces at the end of each N1MM+ logger function key command, the issue appeared to go away.
However, during the CQ160CW contest this year, the issue occurred often enough that I switched back to the KY CATA1ASC Function Key File.
My question is why is it necessary to add one of more spaces to the end of each N1MM+ logger function key command?
I just updated the firmware to version 2.90, but that did not resolve the issue. Right now I am testing with only one space at the end of each command.
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I have used what I think is the same setup, but not with RHR. I've used the RR Control Box internal Winkey emulator for the past year on 4 or 5 different remote units (all with my control unit) and have not seen that problem. I don't know enough about the differences between the RHR system and a regular RR setup to comment on how best to setup your unit, but it seems that RHR should be knowledgeable about what you would need to do. Have you asked them for their recommendation?
All I can say here is that a similar setup works without that problem.
Dennis W1UE
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I am a www.remotehamradio.com (RHR) member. I use an RRC-1258 MkII to interface with my Elecraft K3/0 Mini and the N1MM+ logger.
Whích type of Com/serial port are you using?
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I've had a similar issue with my ts-480 set up. After half an hour or more or normal use, N1MM+ stops sending the last character of my cw message (e.g. I send M0BP when in S&P). Inserting a space at the end of the command string in N1MM+ returns me to M0BPQ.
I also found that shutting N1MM+ down, rebooting my "face plate" RRC and reconnecting resets everything and the space is no longer required - for another half an hour or so.
Its been rather frustrating in contests, but I'm not serious enough about them for it to be a game changer!
73
Steve, M0BPQ
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W1UE - RHR tried out the WinKey emulator a couple of years ago and had so much trouble with it that they don't mention it's use to RHR users. In other words, they didn't have time to play with it. Instead, they advise users to use the KY CATA1ASC macros. The KY CATA1ASC macros have that advantage that you can hear the remote receiver during gaps.
Jan (Microbit) - I use virtual port 3 (RRC1258Extra) to connect the N1MM logger to the WinKey emulator.
M0BPQ - How do you clear the ERR KEY or ERR PTT error message? I hit the dot lever on my Vibro Keyer.
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Jan (Microbit) - I use virtual port 3 (RRC1258Extra) to connect the N1MM logger to the WinKey emulator.
Forgot to ask about which Windows version? W10 has some strange things going on regarding virtual (USB) Com ports.
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Jan (Microbit) - I am using Windows 10. The virtual ports that I see in Device Manager are as follows:
RRC1258 COM0 (COM11)
RRC1258 COM1 (COM10)
RRC1258 COM2 (COM19)
RRC1258 COMExtra (COM12)
I doubt that it has anything to do with Windows 10, but I have observed that the reliability of the RRC1258 COM1 virtual connection does not match that of an RS-232 to USB connection from the COM1 port on the RRC-1258 to my PC. I thought that it would be neat to run a cable from the USB connection on the RRC1258 to my PC to accommodate the COM1 and COExtra connections needed to use the WinKey emulator with the N1MM+ logger. However, the N1MM+ logger connection to RRC1258 COM1 (COM10) was lost frequently. I had to restore the RS-232 to USB connection from the COM1 port on the RRC-1258 to my PC, meaning that I had to use two cables.
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It has in fact everything to do with Windows 10 and its USB virtual Com port driver usbser.sys(from Microsoft), which we are using for the virtual com ports in the RRC and the 1216H products. Yesterday I had the opportunity to try a demo version of an usbser.sys replacement driver from a German company that made the virtual Com ports work just fine with the Win-Test program. I would say that it's very likely that driver would make N1MM+ and other program work much better too. The troublesome part with that driver is its price, so it would really be good if there was a fix or some workaround making it work with usbser.sys.
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Right now, there are issues on both the WinTest and N1MM+ reflectors concerning Win10, radio control, and virtual com ports. I know one of the Microbit software guys is actively working on the WinTest issue; it will be interesting to see what they come up with.
Several years ago, I don't believe the Winkey emulator in Remote Rig was working correctly. You have to get version 2.87 before everything seemed to be working correctly, and that has a date of last year sometime. I have had zero problems with getting the Winkey emulator to work here, and only an occasional problem with the Microbit USB connection to the radio stopping, and I am a rabid contester that has used the combination for some 150+ rate hours, and frequent 100+ rate hours. So, if the RHR experience is from several years ago, I'd suggest revisiting it. It only requires changing one item in the Control RRC, and the proper setup in the logging program.
I'll also admit, I chose to stick with Win7 and am glad I did. There still seem to be many issues with Win10 and ham software that I don't wish to spend on time.
Dennis W1UE
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The latest news is that the maker of Win-Test did a test version for us at Microbit with a small change when reading data from the serial port and it seems to work-around the usbser.sys issue :)
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Win-Test will contain that change in coming versions according to the maker :)
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Jan (Microbit) - Thanks for enlightening me! Are you saying that the only way to get the German drivers is to purchase Win-Test?
W1UE - I am revisiting the WinKey emulator experience for RHR. By ... It only requires changing one item in the Control RRC, and the proper setup in the logging program.
, are you referring to the following or something else?
1. Change mode for "COM3(Extra) mode (USB-COMFSK)" to "Mode-8, WinKeyer".
2. Add Radio 'None" connected to the above virtual USB port, check CW/Other, click "Set", check WinKey and click OK. Make sure that CW/Other is NOT checked for the Elecraft K3 or other Radio.
BTW, for what its worth, here are the mode and speed settings used in my RHR configuration:
COM0, 14-Elecraft K3 Twin, 38400
COM1, Mode-7, CAT to COM2 (Remote), 9600
COM2, Logical parallel with COM0, 38400
COM3, Mode-8, WinKeyer
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These settings are for Control RRC only.
Com0-same
Com1- same, except "Use USB Comport as Com1" is "Yes" and baud rate is 38400
Com 2- same
Com 3- Mode 8- Winkey
If you have a serial cable connecting the computer to the Control RRC that was being used for radio control, remove it.
Make sure the USB cable is connected between the computer and the Control RRC.
Go into Control Panel and find the Comports that Windows has assigned to the Microbit Com 1 and Com 3.
Go into N1MM+.
Whatever methods you are now using for radio control and cw keying in N1MM+, turn them off.
Assign the Com 1 port to radio control, matching baud rate.
Assign the Com 3 port to the Winkey.
N1MM+ messages should now use the RRC Winkey Emulator. N1MM+ should now be using the USB cable for radio control.
I plug my paddle into the Control RRC Paddle jack to hand send CW when I need it.
Dennis W1UE
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Jan (Microbit) - Thanks for enlightening me! Are you saying that the only way to get the German drivers is to purchase Win-Test?
No, I am saying that we(Microbit) would have to buy it and include it in our software, but it is too expensive, so we are hoping that the software developers that develop PC programs using serial ports will implement the work-around in their software.
The change in Win-Test is not connected to the German driver and will be done in any case.
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W1UE - That's exactly how I had my system configured when I experienced the unreliable connection to COM1, except that I had the baud rate set at 9600 because RHR advised that is all that is necessary. I don't recall if I tried 38400 baud, so I will try it now.
Jan (Microbit) - Ok, you are hoping that the Microbit software developers will implement the work-around in their software. I am going to try increasing the COM1 baud rate to 38400 as suggested by Dennis and see what that does.
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W1UE - Ok! I switched back to the virtual COM1 connection and upped the baud rate to 38400. It will take a while to see if dropouts still occur, but I have already determined that I still get occasional ERR KEY messages if the spaces at the end of each N1MM+ command are stripped. I had to put the spaces back in.
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In the N1MM+ radio setup, I use 38400-8-n-1, Always Off, Always Off, Nothing checked, Normal Polling rate, no foot switch.
In the N1MM+ Winkey setup, I use Always On, Always Off, PTT Delay 30, Allow ext Interruprs not checked, Winkey checked, two radio protocol none and footswitch none.
I get a radio timeout maybe once an hour. I have yet to see a Winkey error message.
Dennis W1UE
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In N1mM+, on the Configure-Winkey tab, the Pin 5 function is PTT.
Lead Time, Tail TIme, First Character, Keying Compensation are all 0. Hang time is 1.33.
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Jan (Microbit) - Ok, you are hoping that the Microbit software developers will implement the work-around in their software. I am going to try increasing the COM1 baud rate to 38400 as suggested by Dennis and see what that does.
No, I am one of the software developers at Microbit and we are not the developers of Win-Test and similar programs ;) The work-around would have to be implemented in Win-Test and other Windows/PC programs using serial ports.
I got a reply from the maker of N1MM+ and he says they are using vb.net and not Win32 API directly(like Win-Test). That means they are most likely not able to implement the Win32 API work-around that the Win-Test developer found.
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How does the WinKey emulator key the remote transmitter? Does it use COM0 DTR or RTS? The reason for the second question is that for the N1MM+ logger to key the transmitter directly, DTR must be set to CW.
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It functions just like a winkey. The connection to key the transmitter is done inside the RR Box.
I never thought about your question, because its always worked on my unit.
If it makes a difference, I do have Com 1 rts/dtr set to "yes"but I don't think that is how the keying is done.
It works, so I haven't changed it.
Dennis W1UE
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Ok! I just re-read the description of RS-232 port the K3 manual. It describes the use of DTR and RTS for CW and PTT. The N1MM+ logger communicates with the remote K3 via the following path:
1. Cable from USB port on control PC to COM1 on the control RRC1258,
2. Internet connection between control and remote RRC1258s,
3. Cable from COM2 on the remote RRC1258 to the RS-232 connector on rear of the remote K3.
I have transmitted CW from a remote K3 in the past using this path after setting DTR to CW in the N1MM+ logger configuration for the connection to COM1.
Now I am concerned that the remote K2 may be keyed by both a DTR input via the RS232 input and the input provided by a cable from the PAD jack on the remote RRC1258 to the KEY jack on the rear of the remote K3.
The source of this concern is Figure 12 on p-16 of the K3 Remote Owner's Manual Rev D, which illustrates an RS232 cable from COM2 on the remote RRC1258 to the RS-232 connector on the rear of the remote K3 and a cable from the PAD jack on the remote RRC1258 to the KEY jack on the rear of the remote K3.
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Dennis, thanks for reminding me to switch on COM1 rts/cts. I just tried keying the transmitters at several stations directly from the N1MM+ logger and discovered that there was no output. So, apparently, rts/dts keying has been disabled at all stations. That means that the only method that works is the cable from the PAD jack on the remote RRC1258 to the KEY jack on the rear of the remote K3. So let simplify my previous question:
How does the WinKey emulator key the remote transmitter?
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The reliability of the virtual COM1 connection appears to have improved since I increased the baud rate from 9600 to 38400. I have yet to see communications lost between the N1MM+ logger and the RRC1258, but this is after only limited monitoring.
Also, prior to upgrading the RRC1258 firmware to version 2.90, I had to add two spaces to the end of each function key definition. Now it appears that only one space is required. Again, this is after only limited monitoring.
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The Winkeyer keys the the transmitter via the output you have selected normally out 1 or out 2 which is connected through the PAD jack
/mike
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sm2o - AhHA! Mike, thanks for getting me pointed in the right direction! I just checked and the OUT2 Mode is "Keyer" on my Control RRC. According the CW-Keyer section of the RRC1258 User Manual, the settings for the Control RRC output modes are irrelevant, but the Radio RRC OUT0, OUT1 and OUT2 modes are supposed to be set to I/O, I/O and Keyer, respectively.
W1UE - Dennis, what values of Lf delay and Key delay are you using in your Control RRC? The reason that I have to add a space to the end of all of my N1MM+ function key definitions may be related to the value of Key delay.
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The subject of this thread is "WinKey emulator issue: Why is space(s) required at end of N1MM+ F-key command?". I believe that I now have the answer to the question. A space or spaces may be needed at the end of N1MM+ function key definitions to offset your Key Delay setting.
I have been using the suggested values of Lf and Key delay, 100 and 50 mS, respectively. I just reduced the settings to 75 and 25 mS, and so far, I haven't had a problem with hang-up's and ERR Key messages with no spaces added to the end of my function key definitions.
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I use a LF of 0, and a KeyDel of 50.
I normally wouldn't have a problem with spaces at the end of N1MM+ key commands. Every Fkey message
I use has a space at the end of it so that they can be "chained" without running together.
Dennis W1UE
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W1UE - So the truth comes out! You have a space at the end of each function command, just like I did. I'm going return Lf and Key delay to the original values and add the space again, because I just discovered that I still get an occasional ERR KEY message.
Here's the thing though. The space shouldn't be required. Here is why:
What does a "Key delay" of 50mS mean? It appears to mean that the first dot or dash is delayed 50mS after PTT is enabled. That suggests that PTT should be released 50mS after the last dot or dash. That doesn't appear to be happening when the WinKey emulator output is controlled by ASCII characters it is receiving from the N1MM+ logger. However, it does appear to be happening when the WinKey emulator output is controlled by a paddle.
In studying the information about the WinKey settings in the N1MM+ manual, I found that the PTT release delay is referred to as the "Tail Time". I tried adjusting it (found on the Winkey tab), but it had no effect.
Also, I have been able to reproduce the issue by pressing the ESC key to release PTT while sending CQ. The K3 hangs and I receive an ERR KEY message, if I do so during a dot or dash, but not otherwise.
Jan (Microbit) - Please review the above. I believe that the problem is that the "Tail Time", if any, isn't equal to the "Key delay", as I believe that it should be. This is only a problem when the WinKey emulator output is controlled by ASCII characters.
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John
I'm going to go back to the first sentence you wrote in this thread: "I am a member of RHR". In addition, RHR has told you how you need to send CW using N1MM+, and that did not include using the RRC Winkey Emulator. Granted, this was before the improvements in the RRC Winkey Emulator, but RHR has apparently never revisted the issue. I've used their setup and I can vouch that it works quite well and smoothly, but I'm not a member and have no access to test out the RRC Winkey usage with it. It is also a "Winkey Emulator"; there are many versions of Winkey Emulators out there, and many of them don't support the variable setting that N1MM+ has on its Winkey page. The Winkey Emulator was designed as an addition, or a bonus, to the package; most were never designed to be a full fledged Winkey. That's neither good nor bad, it just is.
Your issue seems to be a timing issue- something somewhere in the chain between your computer, the Control RRC, Internet line, Remote RRC, and Remote Radio is disrupting the timing of the signal going to/coming back from the Remote RRC, resulting in ERR KEY or ERR PTT.
My system is not the same as yours, as I have full control over the settings in both the Control and Remote RRCs (I believe that RHR locks the user out of the Remote RRC, and I can understand why). I use a space at the end of all my N1mM+ messages, not because my unit needs it to work correctly but because it makes chaining messages go much smoother. My setup works perfectly with NO spaces at the ends.
Bottom line, to make this work, and to make it work smoothly, RHR will most likely have to make changes in their system. Until that happens, the best you can do is to use your workaround and live with the errors. If you haven't contacted RHR lately, you may want to make another effort in getting them to look at the usage of the RRC Winkey.
Dennis W1UE
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Jan (Microbit) - Please review the above. I believe that the problem is that the "Tail Time", if any, isn't equal to the "Key delay", as I believe that it should be. This is only a problem when the WinKey emulator output is controlled by ASCII characters.
Have you had a look at "PTT tail delay" found in the radio RRC?
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W1UE - Dennis, I talked to Lee, WW2DX, one the co-owners of RHR, on the phone yesterday. He told me that you should never use the KY CATA1ASC sequence in N1MM+ function key definitions when you are using a K3/0 or K3/0 Mini control head and an RRC1258. He also told me that he has operated in several contests using the WinKey emulator built-in to the RRC1258 in the past and doesn't recall any problems. Apparently, we had communications failures in the past. He told me that he will that a look at my issue when he has some "on" time.
One probable difference between the RHR configuration and your configuration is that operation is in half-duplex because full duplex requires too much bandwidth.
Thanks for informing me that many Winkey emulators don't support the variable settings that N1MM+ has on it's Winkey page.
Jan (Microbit) - I found "PTT-off mute delay" listed in the Advanced Settings on my control RRC. Does "PTT tail delay" only appear in the Advanced Settings of a radio RRC?
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If you read the setup manual on the Remote Rig Setup you can see what parameters are adjustable on the Control and Remote RRCs, what range they can be set to, and in most cases the default that usually works okay. I would not be surprised at all if RHR does not allow its users access to their Remote RRCs, and it would also not surprise me if if RHR had a "recommended" group of settings for your Control RRC instead of the defaults as stated in the manual. Still, to get a feel for what parameters you can change on your Control RRC setting the best thing to do is to read the manual. It is readily available for download on the RR website.
Dennis W1UE
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Jan (Microbit) - I was doing what W1UE suggested (read the manual) while he was preparing his last post and answered my last questions. I found that the radio RRC only has two settings:
PTT activated by Keyer (No/Yes)
PTT tail delay ms [0-999]
No recommended settings are listed.
Is the first setting supposed to be "On" when using the WinKey emulator? What is a typical value for the second setting? I would assume that it should be the same as the "Key delay" setting in the control RRC.
When I know what the settings should be or at least starting points, I will contact RHR and have them check and change the settings as needed.
W1UE - It would be helpful to know the values that you are using for the above settings.
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PTT activated by keyer is normally used. The Radio is then keyed before the CW starts and you do not need to have the radio in VOX mode or what it's called it's a little bit different between different radios. The Mic cable must be connected to make it work.
PTT tail delay is how long time the PTT above signal should be active after the last dot or dash is sent. This setting is more to avoid PA relays to release to early.
Those two settings has no relation with the KeyDelay setting, Key delay setting is used to decide how much buffering the Radio-RRC should use before starting to send CW, With a perfect Internet connection this can be set set low but with a bad internet connection it must be set so it can take care of the Jitter. For normal use 50 ms isa good start value
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sm2o - Thanks for your insight!
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W1UE - Dennis, would you please provide your two radio RRC Keyer settings? The parameters are as follows:
PTT activated by Keyer (No/Yes)
PTT tail delay ms [0-999]
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Thursday afternoon I requested RHR to record and report to me the "PTT activated by Keyer" and "PTT tail delay" for the stations that I operate on 160m, W1/Calais160, W2/Summit160 and W4/Atlanta. So far, no response.
Being impatient as I am, last night I decided to do experiment to determine the settings myself. First, I removed the space at the end of each function command definition. Then, I turned off VOX (activates PTT). That made no difference. Since VOX was off, the logical conclusion is that "PTT activated by Keyer" is on. Since I continued to receive ERR KEY messages, I suspect that "PTT tail delay" is set at 0.
Any comments?
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John
Your impatience is showing through, as is your frustration. Let's stop for a moment and analyze the problem. It may also be useful to take this off the forum and communicate direct.
Facts:
You have a K3/0 Mini. Some questions:
1. Do you connect the paddle to the Mini, or to the RRC Control Box?
2. You are using the attached USB cable and the Microbit ports for radio control and Winkey.
3. What version of the K3/0 mini firmware are you using? To see what is in your mini, you have to disconnect the Internet line to the RRC box, turn the Mini on, then enter the Config menu. If you leave the Internet line connected, you will see the Firmware version of the Remote K3 unless RHR has disabled it.
4. If you aren't using Firmware 5.38, you should update. There were several fixes related to ERR KEY in Firmware 5.38.
My view now is that this problem is not directly related to RHR or Remote Rig units, but has to do with your equipment, either the Firmware or the station setup. Something is causing the ERR KEY message. ERR KEY is telling us that the keying line is being grounded by something; if it was an RHR problem they would be having LOTS of complaints. Since you seem to be the only one with the problem, my conclusion is that it must be local to your setup. What is wrong, though, is escaping us.
Dennis W1UE
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W1UE - Dennis, I have answered your questions in bold in your response:
Facts:
You have a K3/0 Mini. Some questions:
1. Do you connect the paddle to the Mini, or to the RRC Control Box? To the RRC box.
2. You are using the attached USB cable and the Microbit ports for radio control and Winkey. Yes.
3. What version of the K3/0 mini firmware are you using? 0538. I didn't disconnect the internet line because I wasn't connected to a remote station. To see what is in your mini, you have to disconnect the Internet line to the RRC box, turn the Mini on, then enter the Config menu. If you leave the Internet line connected, you will see the Firmware version of the Remote K3 unless RHR has disabled it.
4. If you aren't using Firmware 5.38, you should update. There were several fixes related to ERR KEY in Firmware 5.38.
My view now is that this problem is not directly related to RHR or Remote Rig units, but has to do with your equipment, either the Firmware or the station setup. Something is causing the ERR KEY message. ERR KEY is telling us that the keying line is being grounded by something; if it was an RHR problem they would be having LOTS of complaints. That makes sense. Since you seem to be the only one with the problem, my conclusion is that it must be local to your setup. What is wrong, though, is escaping us.
Dennis W1UE
Would you suggest that I send you a Private Message or use the email address posted on QRZ?
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Use w1ue@arrl.net
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The subject issue was resolved by unchecking “PTT via Radio Command CW Mode” in the N1MM+ logger “Details” for the Elecraft K3 as shown in the attachment. It was that simple!
Thanks to all that attempted to assist me.